[Python-il] Don't copy PyWeb-IL

Amit Aronovitch aronovitch at gmail.com
Sun Jan 24 09:39:55 IST 2010

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Arik Baratz
<list+python at arik.baratz.org<list%2Bpython at arik.baratz.org>
> wrote:

> 2010/1/22 Amit Aronovitch <aronovitch at gmail.com>
>> How one expects things to behave strongly depends on who that "one" is.
>> People with different expectations or different knowledge might have hard
>> time understanding (not to mention explaining) the other one's POV, so *any*
>> implementation could be considered "a bad idea".
>> The meaning (purpose) of the two lists can be understood as:
>> (1) Python-IL: all things python in Israel, (maybe better named
>> python-all-IL), vs PyWeb-IL: web related python stuff in Israel.
>> (2) Python-IL: all non-web-related python stuff in Israel (maybe better
>> named python-nonweb-IL) vs PyWeb-IL: as before.
> Or it can be understood as "Python discussion in Israel" and "Specialized
> discussion about python use for the web in Israel".

Sounds like (1) (at least like what I ment by 1). My phrasing was aimed to
highlight the difference between 1 and 2.

> I know there might be some crossover, but that's what cross-posting is for
> (if done in moderation!)

The problem is not with over-cross-posting, but with under-cross-posting.

Every python-IL subscriber will subscribe to both (see my poll). Given that
and the fact that more than 60% of current contents is web-related, people
will post to pyweb only (you will NOT be able to convince them otherwise,
and will not bother to forward their posts yourself for long).
After a short while people will not bother subscribing to the "dead"
Python-IL at all, so people with general python questions etc, will stop
posting here too (well, some of them might post to pyweb instead, so it
would become python-IL de-facto, losing its specialization).

With this in mind, maybe the best option is to unite the lists completely.
This has two downsides: (1) web-oriented people with no general interest in
python, might not find/not want to subscribe to a group with no "web" in its
name. (2) Subscribers of pyweb will not be willing to give up their beloved
google interface, whereas some python-IL subscribers are googlephobic and
will object to a list requiring registration in Google Groups.

>> If you think the lists are described by option (2), no doubt your
>> reasoning was right, but note that to think that you must know in advance
>> that Pyweb-IL exists, and even then this does not seem to be the most
>> straightforward interpretation.
> I definitely think an announcement about another list is appropriate.
>> If you think option (1) describes things best, then it makes sense that a
>> person who subscribes to Python-IL expects to get all python contents,
>> including web stuff. He *does not need* to subscribe to Pyweb as well (and
>> might not even know it exists). If he does subscribe to both, he might
>> expect some duplicate contents. This is the most simple and direct
>> expectation based on the interpretation of the group's name. Whether this is
>> implemented by forwarding the other list or somehow convincing the denizens
>> of Pyweb to cross-post is a matter of implementation.
>> Now, experienced net-denizens such as the posters in this thread typically
>> know about the dynamics of competing mailing lists, so they settle into a
>> practice of searching for all groups containing python and subscribing to
>> all in order to avoid missing contents. But in this case (given that they
>> also typically know about cross-posting) they should also expect duplicate
>> contents.
>> And now we come to the question of practicality. So far, my suspicion
>> seems correct - NOBODY seems to want to limit themselves to non-web-related
>> python stuff (though some wish to reserve the option for that in the
>> future). Some other people (I guess) subscribe to all kinds of web-related
>> groups, but don't care much about python in general. How do we provide the
>> most usefulness to people interpreting the purpose of the groups correctly
>> and least damage to those who do not?
>> Since it is harder to convince people (some of which might not be aware
>> that python-IL exists) to cross-post than do a mass forward, since I
>> consider loss of information worse than *expected* and easily removable
>> duplication of messages (I am still having a hard time understanding why
>> some people subscribed to both groups did not expect to get duplicate
>> messages - see above), I thought that the current arrangement is the most
>> practical.
>> Now, all this is just trying to explain and to understand. I am not trying
>> to convince anyone this way or the other (in fact, my personal interest is
>> to unsubscribe python-IL from pyweb, so I'll get a little less spam in the
>> moderator queue), just trying to clear up misunderstandings.
> I've been on-line since 1993. Perhaps due to that I expect mailing lists to
> behave in a certain way and expect a certain etiquette regarding exploders
> and cross-posting. Yes I could write filters, but it definitely behaves in a
> way I personally do not EXPECT a list to behave.
Well, seems like I've been around a bit longer than you. However, back in
the (late) 80's and most of the 90's I never subscribed to automated mailing
lists (with Usenet around, mailing lists had seemed a waste of precious
bandwidth and disk space to me), so you probably have much more experience
with these :-)

re: expectations: but if you subscribe to both lists, you do expect to get
repeated messages, don't you? (and given the considerations above, you'd
probably even think that more than 60% of current contents SHOULD be
cross-posted to both lists) So if you care about such things you'd write
those filters anyway (and with current configuration they will be a little
simpler to write).

The vote count reflects my position, even if you take the absentees and
> enumerate them as 'keep subscribed'.

Don't worry, I will not count them this way or the other.
Nevertheless, since the list-forwarding was not my idea, it would only be
fair to give them that extra week to respond before I undo it.

> -- Arik
Thanks for taking the time to explain...

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